Counseling Partners With Prayer

If you're joining us for the first time, or maybe it's your first time joining us online, we've been in a series entitled A Beautiful Minds A Mental Health Series. And it's been amazing what God has done already in these few weeks of the series. And hey, I want to take a moment as well, and I want you to help me welcome all of our friends that are incarcerated all over America that are watching us via the Pando app. Come on, would you give it up for them this morning? Praise God.

So glad to have you with us. So excited about how we're concluding the series today. And I really believe the Lord's going to minister to so many of you and speak to so many of you, and I am excited and expectant for the miracles that are going to take place. And I believe miracles have been set into motion over the last several weeks. Let me just tell you a few things that are going to happen.

First of all, in just a few moments at the end of our time with our panel today, we're gonna have a QR code on the screen. It's also available out in the concourse. You're gonna have a chance to scan that QR code and it's gonna take you to a landing page of resources that we wanna put into your hands, make available to you so that you can have the help you need moving forward. On that landing page are a list of counselors that we have vetted, that we have relationship with, that we approve of with all of their contact information, and the three that are with us today are on that list. Also, there's some other resources there, including a link to the book that we've referenced throughout the series, Winning the War, in youn Mind, some other resources that you'll find tremendously helpful.

Secondly, I want to mention that our guests today, and I'll introduce them or they're going to introduce themselves in a moment, but they're going to be out in the concourse after the service today. They all have resources available. You'll have a chance when the service ends to go and speak to them, to meet them and to access the resources that they've brought today so that you walk out with some information about what they're able to offer. Let me tell you what they're not out there to do. They're not out there so you can have a personal counseling session with them.

We've brought in the professionals today, and I am so excited and honored to have three professional Christian counselors on the platform with me this morning. Do me a Favor and welcome them today. Amen. Thank y' all so much for being here. And we'll start Josh with you.

Josh is one of our deacons here at the Refuge, and many of you know who he is. But I want each one of them to just share a little bit about their practice, their counseling resources, and their life. Thank you, Pastor J. I got into this field probably 1996, and the reason I did is because I had just gotten sober, had been sober for 10 years, and realized, yeah, that's so neat.

Or I'd been sober as of February 20th of 1995. And in 96, I realized that moving to Hollywood and working in the film industry probably was not a good place for an alcoholic. And so I went back to the school I graduated from, and they. I did a questionnaire, and they suggested human services or counseling. So I started in the school districts in 1996, eventually went back to school to get my master's degree.

And during that program, I got radically saved, thank God. Hallelujah. And the Lord didn't tell me to leave that program. He had me stay in a secular program to probably teach me what I would face in the real world. And opened my first practice in 2000 and then worked in a hospital.

And then we moved here in 2021. Met Natalie in 2020. She hired me from Colorado, so we're so grateful for her and the years we had with her. And my wife Wendy and I, we opened our own practice, Agape Counseling, two and a half, two years ago this past August. The Lord gave me that name in 1999 when I got saved and we finally were able to.

He said now, praise God. So glad to have you with us, Josh. Thank you so much. Many of you know Dr. Natalie Atwell. I said this morning, she's the rose between two thorns.

I don't know about, but. Dr. Natalie, thank you for being with us today. We welcome you here at the Refuge. You're a friend to so many people here in our church. Thank you.

I love Refuge. I love the people here, and I love the pastors. You guys are in good hands here for sure. But I've been counseling for about 20 years. I was raised by people, helpers who love the Lord.

Actually, one was a prison chaplain for many years. So welcome to those who are watching online as well. But I've been doing this for a long time. And then the Lord led me to open my own practice many years ago and gave me wonderful people who are better than me to come work alongside me. And then I've been honored to be able to teach at Liberty University in their clinical mental health counseling program for the past five years.

So I'm super thankful for the work that the Lord gives me to do. And he's also, in the past several years, because of our relationship with the refuge, given us a chance to go overseas to the Philippines at least once a year. And we're raising up counselors there. Actually, we're teaching biblical counseling to pastors so that they can do that in the villages there. And my goal one day is to be able to open a counseling center there so that people have good counseling in Jesus name there.

Wow. So awesome. Praise the Lord. Incredible. Yeah.

And you will realize over the next few moments what an incredible gift these three people and godly Christian counselors are to the body of Christ. Also with us is Pastor Clay Parker. Pastor Clay, welcome. We're so glad to have you with us this morning. He's not only a pastor, but a professional counselor.

Tell us about yourself. Yes. I'm a pastor of a church in Marshfield, North Carolina. Even though I live in this area, I've been in counseling. I'm one of the owners of Kannapolis Counseling Group here in Kannapolis.

I've been in counseling since 1998. I've been doing it since then. But I didn't want counseling. I stumbled into counseling. I was a former injured athlete that had to find my way to do something.

I worked in mental health, owned mental health facilities, trained people and working in different areas of mental health. You know, and then it kind of led me to just kind of narrow down to just being a licensed professional counselor. I deal with addictions and all type of addictions, sexual addictions, substance abuse. And I've been doing it since then. And Pastor just came along with that, even though I was saved.

And Pastor came along with that. And that just took place approximately seven years ago that I became a full time pastor while doing both. Yes. Yeah. Amazing.

Incredible. Thank you for being here. It's honor to have all three of you. And we're going to go pretty deep here in a few moments. I want to let you know we're going to dive into some topics that I believe are going to be hugely beneficial to you.

But we're going to talk about spiritual warfare as it relates to some of the mental health issues. We're going to talk about medicine and prescribed medicines for people that are dealing with things related to mental health issues. But I want to begin by asking the three of you this. How do you, as a Christian Counselor, integrate biblical principles and biblical ideals into your counseling approach. And, Pastor Clay, we'll start with you on that topic.

I think.

I think. As for me, I tell everybody that, you know, I want to be a part of the Bible that people see. You know, I want to be a walking Bible and walk in scriptures that people see when they walk into my office. It may not be posted all over my walls, or I may not do a prayer before they get there, but they should see it through me. So whether they realize it or not, you know, they're getting biblical principles.

And I believe that Jesus had a powerful gift of proximity, that when you got near him, you felt something. So I want everybody to walk in my office, number one, where they feel loved, that they are loved, and I identify with them. I hurt with them, I cry with them, but I'm also there to lift them up, and I'm there to be the strength that they have. So that's a part of the Bible that I give them in counseling with me. So.

Good. Dr. Natalie, how about you? Yeah. I don't stop being who God called me to be when I walk into a setting, even with an unbeliever. And so the Bible is God's word, as God's word is my foundation in my life.

And he's just called me to meet them where they are. So they may not be ready for certain things that some of you might be ready for in church. And I just have to lean into the Holy Spirit and say, what do they need today from you, Lord? What is it that they need from your word? What is it that they need from me?

And I remember a Hindu man coming in one time, struggling with anger with his wife, and I just gave him a proverb. I'm like, you know, a gentle answer turns away wrath. He was like, that's good. Where'd you hear that from? Wow.

So God gives you what you need. And I would say even in your own careers, don't stop being a Christ follower in anything that you do. And that doesn't change in counseling, so. Good. Yeah.

Josh, how would you respond to that question? Well, I think the question is, how do you not integrate, you know, biblical principles into your counseling? For the first years of my practice, and as evidenced by what I called. It was called Josh Bramble Counseling Services. It wasn't called Agape back then because it was still about me and just stepping aside and learning about authenticity.

And so the person that's sitting up here is the same person at home, is the same person in the grocery Store is the same person everywhere I go. And so in terms of that authenticity, just walking out what the Lord is doing in me and loving him and loving others. So good. And we all know that the Bible tells us it's truth. It's biblical truth that ultimately will set people free.

And I personally am so grateful for Christian counselors who don't try to separate the two, but they incorporate the biblical principles that are found in Scripture, realizing that's a part of how God's going to bring freedom and healing to people that are in desperate need of those things. So let me ask you this. What role do you guys feel like that the Holy Spirit plays in your counseling sessions? What role do you feel like prayer plays in spiritual discipline, in people's healing and people's freedom? Josh, we'll start with you.

Sure. You know, for me, it starts in the morning being in the Word. And I joked this morning that usually when I'm in the car, I'm not necessarily on the phone, but I am talking to God. So it looks like it's an ongoing conversation. And, you know, how can you have a relationship with somebody if you don't talk to them?

And so that carries over into the work I do with people. I pray with them, if they're believers, pray with them at the beginning and end, during. But the Holy Spirit is really where I get my discernment from. And he highlights for me and people where they may be struggling, allowing me to ask them questions and them feeling seen, and then they open up more. Yeah.

So Good. So good. Dr. Natalie, how about you? I feel like one of God's CIA agents, the Holy Spirit, just whispers his secrets to you about a person that he wants you to share with them and what he wants to happen in their lives. And he gives me the chance to be able to sit with them in that moment and share.

And it's such an honor, it really is, to walk with people through those moments. And. And sometimes I do pray with clients. I really try to lean in and meet them, like I said earlier, where they are, but some clients aren't ready for that. So I have to really lean and listen and discern the Holy Spirit to say, are they able for me to pray with them right now?

And if not, I'm still going to pray for them. It just might be after session. And also seeking His Word. What does His Word say about this person and what do they need to hear? Because they believe so so many lies that the enemy tells them that they have to learn the truth to be Able to understand.

That's so good. And we've talked about that, how there's a rewiring principle in the mind where we have to replace those lies that we've believed for so long, where the enemy over and over bombards our minds with things that oppose the truth of the word of God. And if we listen to a lie long enough, it'll become truth to us. So we have to replace those lies and then rewire our thinking. And let me just tell you, the Holy Spirit is great when it comes to that.

The Holy Spirit can do a supernatural thing in our minds that is really powerful. So I love and appreciate so much the fact that you all recognize that there is a better counselor than you, whose name is the Holy Spirit and you are in partnership with him. Pastor Clay, how would you respond to that? Well, we definitely rely on it. I think prayer is something that covers us so that we can cover them.

You know, you can't go into covenant because some things that we're not able to deal with are without the Holy Spirit, which gives us discernment how to deal with them. And, you know, either you find something that opens up in the session or something that closes at the session, and you thank God for the Holy Spirit is there, whether they receive it or not. And everybody comes to my office, whether they know they're not. They're already covered when they come to the office because they've been prayed for. And that gives me the strength.

A lot of times they say, thanking me for the help, but they don't realize I rely on his help to guide me every day, which give me strength to help me do what I do every day. So the Holy Spirit is everything in what we do. I cannot even imagine the complexity of the situations that you all deal with, especially now in the times in which living where there are so many issues from children all the way up, people dealing with so many different things. But could you share with us and, Dr. Natalie, we'll start with you. Maybe an example of a miracle that you've seen.

I'm sure there's many or a story of somebody's life that has been transformed through the healing process of professional counseling. Yeah, the Lord just brought this one to mind. I didn't share this in the first service, and I might weep over this one. But one of my most difficult and challenging clients, who I also know is so precious to the Lord, was severely abused by her father most of her childhood. And I'll save you the gory details of that, because there's Younger ones in the audience.

But every form of abuse you could possibly imagine was done to this precious lady. And one of the abuse, it was surrounding water. And she has a really hard time with hygiene and with taking showers because some of her abuse happened there. And the Lord gave me this. He showed me one time before I was working with her, that he walked on the water.

He is over the water. He can command the waves and the sea to do things. And she is probably a nominal believer, maybe a believer in name, but doesn't actively go to church. And I said, do you mind if I share something about Jesus with you? She said, sure.

And I told her that. And since that moment, she has a different relationship with water because I said, he is the Lord over that. And you do not let the enemy speak a lie about something that was done to you. He cannot steal that joy from you. So good.

So I'm just thankful for. That's one example. Yeah. A miracle transformation in that lady's life. Thank God for that.

Pastor Clay, what about you? Well, I just think for me, I can think of a time just being real with some of my clients when they come in broken. A lot of times, they think they feel like they're all alone. And I share my story with them. You know, I was broken.

You just see this version of me, but you don't know how broken I was. Depressed, anxiety, panic attacks, fears, afraid. People see this side of it, the gentle giant side of it. They don't know that I was that person. And I told them the degree didn't do anything to me.

It was God that did it. And once I begin to share that with them, I become their strength. Like you're going to pick your head up. Sometimes people get aggravated me because I'm too positive. Sometimes.

I just know you're going to make it through it, because if I can do it, you can do it. And so I just think of a particular client that time that, like I said, he wanted to take his life. And I think it blew his mind. When I said I was there once I actually tried it. He's like, you did?

Yeah. It was God that helped me. And that's what giving that hope in the sessions that. That allow them to lift themselves up. So that situation right there, you gonna live again.

I'm gonna be right there with you, to walk with you with this journey. So I can just tell you that one particular client right there. So. Good man. Praise God.

Praise God for that. How about you, Josh? I can think back to 20, 23. A gentleman about my age came in and was having. I mean, he was sweating when he came in, had anxiety, panic, depression.

And as we started to get to know each other over the first few sessions, I hadn't prayed with him at all or anything. And I asked him some questions about his teen years and childhood. And he mentioned that he knew the Lord back then and life was different. So we had that discussion. And during that appointment, he asked me to lead him back to the Lord.

And so I led him back to the Lord and he started walking things out. That was in September of 23. By December, he and his wife had started attending a church that they hadn't been to before. She was not saved. She gave her life to the Lord.

They got baptized together on New year's eve of 23 to start the new year. We still meet about once every month or two to check in, but they're actively serving in the church, tithing and living a life for him. It's amazing, beautiful. I love those stories. And God transforms lives.

He's still in that business. And I love the fact that there are different ways that the Lord can lead people to healing into freedom. I want to talk about spiritual warfare as it relates to mental health issues.

And I want to ask you the question, are all mental health issues just simply spiritual warfare, or is there something else going on? How much of it is psychological? How much of it is physical? Maybe a chemical imbalance? How do we know when there's spiritual warfare at work in a person's life?

How do we know when it's just a psychological issue? And how do you, as counselors, walk that tightrope? How do you balance those things out? Josh, we'll start with you on that. You know, one of the things I look at when people come to me, I have them fill out an assessment form, and the things they're struggling with, and what most people talk about is their symptoms.

And you know, what I've learned in doing this? I used to come at it from more clinical approach, and I'm still very clinical. But I've realized also that without the spiritual, you can't move forward. And so finding that balance of mental, physical, emotional, spiritual. And there is a place for it, there is a place for spiritual warfare.

Because when I've worked with people and we've done everything we can on the physical side with depression or they're, you know, taking medication, different things, there's still something missing. And usually it's a lie that they've believed that's been perpetrated by the enemy. And once we identify that lie and we can use the steps in Craig Groeschel's book to reframe. Because behavior modification doesn't work. But if we reframe.

But then there can still be some spiritual things that go on. And for me personally, incorporating all those things has been especially important the last four years, where knowing my identity in Christ, that learning that I'm a son of the King came from going to Quest in Georgia. After that, I realized all of these spiritual things that had been put on me by past generations. And I worked with Jack and Mel, who go here through Restoring the Foundations ministry. And I broke free of all that.

I have not had any heart problems since. We broke free, free from that in 2023. Come on, man. And he. I had just gone through afib, everything.

And I've had symptoms here and there, but knowing my identity. And then about six weeks ago, before this started, the Lord took me on a journey related to my eating. And it was kind of the last addiction. Cause he's healed me of all the others. And in service here on a Sunday during worship, he took me back to where my eating started when my parents split up and some other things were happening.

And he showed up for me and showed me where he was. And he told me to go back through Craig Groeschel's book. And then over the last six weeks, I've been reframing and rewiring. And he has shed £40 off me since six weeks ago. And it's not because of behavior modification.

Yeah, right. Yeah. So powerful. Yeah. Dr. Natalie, how about you?

When it comes to the delicate issue of spiritual warfare and counseling. Yeah. I mean, we do look at the symptoms a lot of times, and sometimes you can tell from that way what they're struggling with, what they're dealing with. But I want to say that we are all spiritual beings. So at some level, all of your problems are somewhat spiritual.

But that doesn't mean that's how the problem is treated. If you look at it from a spiritual angle, if that makes sense. So sometimes we go through and we do our normal treatment of spiritual or clinical training. And that works. And that's great for them.

But then there are times when I know we need to go a little deeper and we need to see if it is a warfare issue. Are there temptations that are not normal to them? Accusations from the enemy? You know, are they walking in obedience and there's something that the enemy's trying to get them off path for, or are they an unbeliever? And they're being attacked, so they don't become a believer.

And so there are some issues that we have to go deeper and ask some more questions to find out what is it they're really up against. And I'll tell you, if it truly is like an oppression or possession type thing, normal forms of therapy are not going to work. So you have to go through the spiritual route to really address what's happening with that person. Yeah. So good, powerful.

Pastor Clay, what about you? Well, to piggyback off what she said, you can't deal with what you don't discern. A lot of times people trying to deal with stuff, but they don't know how to discern the two. You know, we're physical, emotional, and spiritual beings. We have to discern which one is which.

And, you know, even as therapists, I know that when you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you, you just get a certain feeling in certain therapy sessions that this is not physical, this is spiritual. Yeah. And that's when you have to put on your armor and go to warfare. I mean, you have to go to war with them and go for them sometimes on their behalf, because everything is not spiritual. And I think also overgeneralizing.

What's spiritual like, I tell someone, stop giving the enemy so much credit. Yeah, he takes too much credit. Everything is not him. Sometimes you have to take a look in the mirror, maybe you and some things that you're doing, and that helps you separate between the two. That's a mic drop moment right there.

I mean, just dropping so much wisdom on us. And Josh, you mentioned rtf, which is restoring the foundations. And one of our elder couples here at the refuge are highly trained in rtf, and they're actually here in the service. They run the first service as well. And they're going to be out in the concourse if you want to talk to them about rtf, restoring the foundation.

But Jack and Melanie, would you mind standing just so folks can identify you and know who you are? We're so grateful for what they do.

They'll be in the concourse. They have been used by God to lead so many people to healing and to freedom. And your pathway to healing might involve rtf or it might involve Sozo. And we offer Sozo here at the church. It might involve meeting with a professional counselor, or the reality is it might involve all of those things.

All of those things. The. The thing that is so important for you to understand is that it is God's will for you to be healed and for you to be Free. And it's not a lack of faith on your part if you go see a professional counselor or if you have sozo, or if you have an RTF session or go through that program with Jack and Melanie or with others. And that's some of the stigma that I hope we can undo, is that so many people think, well, if I just had more faith, then I wouldn't need to go see a professional.

And they just stay in that pattern. They stay in that place of anxiety or depression or sleep disorders or suicidal thoughts or whatever it might be. So that leads us into the next area. And I want to ask, how do you deal with those things? And here's a loaded question for you.

How do you feel about people being prescribed medicine in order to help them towards their healing or arriving at a place of freedom? And we're going to start with you, Dr. Natalie, on that. Many strong believers have struggled with anxiety and depression. Charles Spurgeon's arguably one of the greatest pastors or preachers that ever lived. He struggled with depression.

A lot of pastors do, actually. It doesn't mean you're not a strong believer. So I'll say that. And I'll also say I don't. I don't believe medicine is wrong.

And I think that's an area you have to pray and discern and ask the Lord. Is this an issue that. It's. Is something in my clinical, you know, body that needs to be dealt with from a clinical standpoint to help balance some things out, because that could be appropriate at that time. And that's biblical.

Jesus used dirt over a man's eyes to help him be healed at one point. Did he need it? No. But he used it in that moment. That was a form of treatment to him in that moment.

So it doesn't always look that way, but sometimes it does. And I thank God for those people who have gotten the help they needed and said, hey, thank you, I needed that. It has really changed and helped me to do the work that you're asking me to do in therapy. And it's helped families, it's helped people. And I always like to joke and say, you don't also have to wear a T shirt that says I'm on pros.

And because you don't have to tell everybody that you're taking it, that's not one thing. You have to confess one to another. That's so good. Yeah. Although it could help someone.

Pastor Clay, what about you? How would you. Well, I think a biblical approach in dealing with these things you know, is something that you start with, starts with compassion. If you look in the Bible, you had David, Elijah, Joel, Paul, who dealt with, you know, emotional stress. Yes.

Distress. So, you know, if you go there and reach them with that, then you start there. That's how you help them. As far as medication, I mean, it's a tool. It's not a weakness.

It's a tool that can help you. Like I tell everybody, tell everybody. You don't become dependent on it. But if something that can slow your symptoms down so that you can function, then that will help, you know, just like, you know, you can drive your car on low oil, it's going to tick. But if you put the oil in your car, it'll run right.

So medication can get it to run right. But we still need to deal while your oil is going low. And that's the therapy part that we deal with in the cognitive part. Yeah. I love, if you will, because in the first service, and that's so good, you talked about going after the root of the issue.

And you use the MCL or ACL injury as an example. Can you expound on that just a little bit more? Absolutely. When I talk about medication, like I said, I've had knee surgeries before, you know, being an athlete and stuff like that. And I've tore my mcl.

Of course I'm going to take the medication, the Tylenol, to ease the pain, but it doesn't fix unless you have surgery. So medication would be do something to ease the pain. But ultimately therapy and connecting the heart and the mind back together is something that's going to help that person to heal. So the medication is just going to allow the symptoms to stop and stop the swelling. But then when you go through deep therapy, it'll put everything back together so that you can heal.

Yeah. So good. Josh, anything you want to share about that as well? Yeah, I've kind of run the gamut on this in the last 30 years, you know, coming from being a non believer and then getting saved. And initially in practice, I was all for meds and eventually worked for a hospital where it was very easy to have psychiatrists and doctors prescribe as the first line of defense.

And where I'm at today with it is it has a place. Right. And for some people, they may not need it, but for others, where they're dealing with symptomology that is affecting their ability to be safe or do things like that, we need to address the symptoms, as Pastor Clay said, to bring down the level and then get to the root of what's going on with it. The medication won't fix it. It will help it, but in some cases it's needed and it's just kind of part of what we do.

I don't typically refer for that. If a client asks me, I will, but we've been able to. Since I came to work for Natalie, I don't know that I maybe referred five people for medication because we've just been able to hit it through. Going after the root. Yeah.

That's amazing. That's so good.

What would you say to people that maybe their first. Their first solution would be medication or maybe even professionals that you deal with that are in the same field that you're in, and maybe that's their first line of recourse or of help for somebody, or maybe that's where people turn first. What would you say about that? Just quickly, Josh, I was just thinking about the whole medical model. That is the medical model, and we're missing the point if we're prescribing for the symptoms, because oftentimes when the medical field, not everyone puts people on medication, there isn't a requirement or a suggestion to do the hard work of therapy so you don't get to the root.

You can continue to treat the symptoms, but you aren't going to get free. Yeah, that's so good. I use example in the nine o' clock service. I think most of you know, I try to be, you know, proactive in taking care of myself, taking care of my body and staying in shape somewhat. And I'm not going to say I try to eat healthy, I'm a junk food junkie, but really I've tried to work out.

And you guys know, a couple of years ago, at the age of 60, I rode a bicycle across America. But remember, years ago, and I believe I was in my 40s when I went to my doctor, my regular checkup, and he said, your cholesterol is sky high. And he said, I'm going to put you on the same medicine that I'm on now. He was a competitive swimmer. He adhered to a very strict Mediterranean diet.

And he said for me, talking about himself and for you, he said, we're dealing with an issue that's hereditary. And so he prescribed cholesterol medicine for me back then, and I've been on that medicine ever since. So the choice for me was, do I want to prolong my life and prevent, you know, a heart attack, potential heart attack or stroke by taking the medicine? And really, I'm grateful That because of that medicine, that it has given me a much healthier life over the last several years. And I think for people that have to go on medicine for mental health issues, there's a stigma about that, and a lot of people are reluctant to do that.

I think what these professionals are saying in terms of going after the root is the key. And I appreciate you bringing that out so much. A couple of last questions and then we'll wrap things up. But what about somebody who's very disciplined in their spiritual life? They're in the Word consistently.

They have an active prayer life. Maybe they even practice the discipline of fasting and prayer. They're a person who's in community, they're in church regularly, but they just can't seem to get a breakthrough. They just seem stuck. What do you do with that?

What do you say to a person like that and have you run across people in your practice that are dealing with that very issue? Pastor, we'll start with you. Yes, you could pray fast, read the word and still feel stuck. It's just as simple as that. But that doesn't indicate that you're weak or you have a lack of spirituality.

A lot of times we have to be careful because what the word does, it covers you up, but you don't know what you uncovering. You have to uncover this stuff because it does do that, it does cover you. But sometimes we have to deal a little bit deeper and uncover that what you're hiding behind. And so once you get behind that, then those two make sense. People bounce between rational and emotional, and that's where people kind of find themselves.

It's a ping pong effect. They go in between rational and emotional, and that's what it does. So what we try to do is help them balance it out. You're not weak because you pray and it doesn't work. My job is let's find the root.

You know, let's find the root so that you understand what you're walking on, what you're dealing with, and that helps that person put those things back together. Counseling does not replace spiritual discipline. It walks alongside those two. So good. So good.

Say that again, would you? Yes. Counseling does not replace spiritual discipline. It walks alongside your spiritual discipline. Yeah.

So, so, so good. Yeah. Dr. Natalie, counseling can be a way of processing trauma. And I like to say it's kind of of like a ball of yarn. If you're undoing it, you have to untangle one thing at a time.

And that's what we get to do at as counselors is untangle one part at a time to just help figure out what's going on at the root that we can help them with. But that's something that we can do in the context of a loving relationship. And God has really shown me in real life what perfect love cast out fear looks like. And that sitting in a posture of love with the person in front of you that no matter what they bring at you, no water, no matter what manifest problem wise or even of the enemy, staying in a posture of love. Change happens in the context of relationship.

Jesus offered relationship with the Father to us, and we get to do that as counselors. And that's just one way. And in Proverbs it says where there's no guidance of people falls. But in an abundance of counselors, there's safety and we just get to be a part of that alongside, like Pastor Clay said of spiritual discipline. So good.

Yeah, Josh. You know, I like what Pastor Clay said about the rational and the emotional. And it makes me think back to when Pastor Abe preached a couple weeks ago. And in our field, we talk a lot about emotion regulation. And it was Pastor Abe.

Sorry, not Pastor Clay. You said it. Yeah. So the, the, that line between rational and emotional. And there's something with emotion regulation through working on that called the wise mind.

And it's a combination of both. And it just hit me, where does wisdom come from? The word. And just that rational, emotional, in the middle is wisdom. Yeah.

So good. Last question. And I want to kind of frame it by saying this. There is for a lot of people a stigma or a fear about reaching out for counseling. And I've personally dealt with that in my own life.

I have benefited from counseling. But I'll never forget, it was years ago, before we built this building is when our offices were over on Central Drive. And one of the scariest phone calls that I ever made in my life was the day that I decided to reach out to a counselor because I felt like that I needed help. I want you to talk about maybe the stigma related issues that. And I want you to also answer the question, when does a person know?

Like, is there a magic point that somebody should reach out? Like, you know, they're doing all the right things. Maybe they're in church, maybe they're, you know, in a small group or whatever it might be. But how does somebody know? Like, what are the warning lights on the dashboard that would say it's time to reach out for professional help?

And how can we undo that fear, that stigma that is sometimes related to that. And we're going to start with you, Dr. Natalie. I wasn't ready for that yet. I'm kidding. I'll say that.

Oftentimes somebody doesn't know, but the people around them do. And if somebody's saying, man, I'm worried about you, I'm concerned. You don't seem like yourself. Maybe you're. Or even in your own self, you know, my behavior is changing.

I'm withdrawing from things I normally enjoy. Even overachieving sometimes can look like you're overdoing everything. That can look like a problem deep down within your heart and your soul. It needs to be dealt with. And so if you know those changes are there, your marriage is struggling, don't.

Don't wait till you, like, are calling us and then calling the divorce attorney next. Like, don't wait that late. Preferably call when you're like, I think we just have some things to work out. We can do a lot more work there than if you're on life support. But we will be there no matter where you're at in that process.

And we've all been there. We've all talked about our own counseling, personally journeys. And we know how hard it can be to sit with a stranger and try to talk about some deep, intimate things in your life that you need to overcome and work through. But the Lord can work in those ways. Yeah.

So good. So I grew up in the generation where we were told over and over, real men don't cry. And Pastor Clay, you talked about that a little bit in the first service. Talk about that a little bit as well. Well, I realized that's where a lot of mental health starts.

When you fall off your bike. I'm going to speak for as a male and African American male, you know, you fall off your bike at five years old, they tell you, don't cry. So how am I gonna become a man? And I wanna show emotion to my wife when I don't cry. So mental health starts at that point.

And then being an athlete, you go out there and get cracked on the field and get with a baseball or get dunked on. You're not supposed to cry. So you build all this stuff inside of you. And I would say this, and I would say it in front of everybody. Pastor, as an African American, our community, it's a stigma against mental health.

They even call mental health witchcraft, you know, even in the church. So to break those stereotypes down is like you're doing something that. That is out of God's will because you get help. So to Break that stereotype. And like I say in our community, when we had someone that was ill in our families, like I told you earlier, Big mama just put them in the back room and fed them, and they never got them help.

They took them to church and they took them home, but all you did was pile all that stuff up. So, you know, and it started. That's where the journey starts, you know, your mind and stuff. It bottles that stuff up until you don't even know how to deal with yourself as you get older. So how can I relate to you when I don't even know who I am?

I've suppressed this for all these years, and then you're telling me to be a human and be a being. I don't even know what that looks like. So mental health started right there. Yeah. And I would say this, and to anybody who want to reach out, mine started when I.

When my career was over with. I had all this stuff inside of me and I wasn't who I was. I lost my identity when the basketball stopped bouncing. I died with it until I learned to put these two back together. Wow.

So good. So good. Josh, how does a person know when it's time to reach out for professional help? You know, I think there's a number of factors. One of the ones I think I talked about this morning was the fact that sometimes when you're just at the end of your rope, you may not be suicidal, you may not be homicidal, anything like that.

But, you know, saying stuff like, man, I just wish Jesus would come back today, or I just, you know, for me, a few years ago, it was just wanting to go to bed at like 4 o' clock in the afternoon, just, I'm done. I want to take a nap. I was napping a lot and all that, just not knowing what else to do. And like Natalie said, you know, usually it's other people. It was other people around me that knew I was an alcoholic before I was.

And I fought him for 10 years on that. And so, yeah, yeah, it's good, it's good. Such great wisdom. Amazing. We're gonna bring the worship team out.

We're gonna allow these folks to make their way to the concourse. But would you do me a favor? Would you just show them your appreciation for what they've done today? Amen.